I have written a couple of articles covering Bounding First Fire (BFF) prior to this one. Those articles focused on the rules. This article will take a different approach. We will explore some of the Q&A pertaining to BFF and what they mean to AFV combat. I will also highlight how I think we should declare BFF, what the rules say, and what the Q&A says relative to all of this.
Unfortunately, this move into one of the more complex and opaque aspects of the rules is going to be as much opinion-based as rules-based. The opinions expressed in the Q&A carry far more weight than anything I put forth, so make sure you are paying attention to who is saying what. Some of this is going to get muddy, so be careful citing this article as proof of anything other than my opinion.
The “Issue”
So there is an issue buried inside of D3.3. In part, D3.3 says “… The DEFENDER can intervene to attempt Defensive First Fire after the ATTACKER announces expenditure of any MP (even Delay MP), but must do so before the announcement of the next MP expenditure or of Bounding First Fire; …” The gist of this rule is that once an ATTACKER has declared a BFF shot, the DEFENDER must await the outcome of that attack before he can act again.
Taken on its own, this doesn’t seem to be an issue. The confounding subject comes when we announce BFF simultaneously with a change to CE status. Both actions require zero MP and are tied to the previous movement expenditure. It is not unreasonable for the DEFENDER to want to shoot at the now vulnerable crew which could not be affected prior to the announcement of CE. But once we announce B1F , we must complete B1F before the DEFENDER can fire. So what happens when a player says “Stop, go CE and B1F”?
The First Q&A
Refer to footnote one.1 The relevant part for this discussion pertains to an announcement of “Stop, Go CE and BFF”. As submitted, the Q&A points out D3.3 prevents any Defensive First Fire (D1F). The Q&A however, says this is incorrect. It states “Bounding First Fire cannot be declared simultaneously with a MP expenditure, so the DEFENDER will always be able to declare Defensive First Fire between an MP expenditure and the declaration of Bounding First Fire.”
What is clear here is we must afford the DEFENDER an opportunity to fire on the Stop MP. This answer over ruled an earlier Q&A2. Then there is a third Q&A which has a slightly different take3. This Q&A afforded the DEFENDER a shot. After no declared shots, the moving vehicle declares CE and BFF. Part 2 say you cannot declare a D1F shot after declaration of a B1F shot against the CE vehicle.
But wait. The same Q&A (part 1) also says you can take a shot against a vehicle declaring CE based on the previous MP expenditure3. Part one sets up a race condition with part 2. If the DEFENDER can announce his intention to D1F before the ATTACKER announces his intention to BFF, then the DEFENDER keeps his right to fire. Clever players might head that off at the pass and say “I have no fire unless you CE” to void the race.
Zero MP Issues
You cleverly stated you have no shots unless your opponent declares CE, but what if he states “I will BFF and CE”? There is nothing in the rules stating the order of operations. Since they are zero MP expenditures, we tie them to the previous MP expenditure. As far as I can tell, they happen simultaneously.
There is an old Q&A stating we must announce CE prior to the BFF shot, but the status of that Q&A is murky4. Interestingly, this is the only OFFICIAL Q&A cited in this article. It appeared in an official Avalon Hill publication. Sadly, that doesn’t clear up its authority. The Article First Do No Harm in Journal 3 deprecated older Q&A. In order to avoid answering all the same questions again, these older Q&A were “brought back to life”. The best we can do is look at the older Q&A, compare them to modern Q&A and the rules. If there is superseding Q&A or if the rule itself has changed, we should ignore these older Q&A. If neither has occurred, we can look at these older Q&A as diagnostic. Regardless, we need to look at these older Q&A with a jaundiced eye.
That is a lot of words to say the issue isn’t at all clear. The best we can say is it seems we must announce CE before BFF. But if pressed, it would be difficult to point to a definitive answer. Even if this proves to be true, all we have done is resolve back to the previous race condition.
A Sideways Discussion
The funny thing about changing CE status is it isn’t really tied to MP. You can do it practically at any point. It is this lack of specificity that allows us to claim a shot on the previous MP expenditure. But it also allows for other interesting options. It is possible to declare CE simultaneously with a Smoke Dispenser or Vehicular Smoke Grenade attempt. Since you can declare CE without spending a MP, this means you can do this at the beginning of a vehicle’s movement BEFORE spending a MP and being subject to fire. If you fail the SMOKE attempt, the vehicle remains CE since you cannot voluntarily switch between CE and BU status more than once in a MPh.
What isn’t clear is what happens if you declare a CE plus Smoke attempt in the Movement Phase after spending one or more MP. Is the CE part of the attempt to place Smoke or is it part of the previous MP? If you cannot place Smoke, then your CE crew is vulnerable on its last MP expenditure. Can we shoot the exposed crew before it places SMOKE? I don’t know. I can see this playing either way since the zero MP CE exists.
How I Play It
When I play ASL, I will clearly state the MP expenditure and give my opponent a chance to fire. After he finishes firing I will change the status of my vehicle to CE and give him another chance to shoot. Once he finishes shooting, I will perform my action. This may be B1F, Smoke Dispenser, Vehicular Smoke Grenade, etc. I deliberately give my opponent a chance to shoot when my vehicle changes status. I don’t like race conditions and I think this is fair. But this is only my opinion formed over many years playing ASL. Don’t ask me to point to a rule or Q&A supporting this position. I can’t unless I am playing in the Albany Tournament where they have a tournament rule clarifying this approach.
Conclusion
Foremost, I don’t envy the game’s caretakers. The rules are hard enough to keep track of without also having 300+ pages of Q&A to be aware of. Multiple collections of official and unofficial Q&A make the task even harder. The need to both deprecate and not re-answer all the same questions only makes it more confusing. It is hard for a small group of people to keep track of it all. I do not mean this article as an indictment of those people. They do an outstanding job.
There is no doubt this is hard for us players to get right. The lack of specificity in the rules and the confusion in the Q&A makes understanding that more difficult. It could really use clarification keeping in mind we have somehow muddled all this way without it. After all, the game is more than 30 years old.
Finally, please keep in mind that all of this is mostly opinion and mine counts for very little. As one player pointed out at a recent tournament, “Jim is just a guy with a blog. That doesn’t make him infallible.” Unfortunately, there is no straight answer here so opinion is all I have. The rules are unclear and the Q&A are outdated, contradictory, or internally inconsistent. I think the most definitive answers are in footnotes one, three, and four. Given the race conditions in footnote 3, I don’t find that very satisfying. I am not alone.5 The CE + BFF / BFF + CE issue is anybody’s guess, but at least footnote four gives us a sign of prior intent.
Sorry. I wish I could make this clearer. But I really am just a guy with a blog.
“Start - 1 MP” [BU AFV out of LOS of non moving Defender] - X
“Move for 2.5 MP” [into Defenders LOS, enter open ground and executing D2.18] - Y
“Stop - 1 MP, go CE and BFF on Defender on this Stop MP” [as Stopped Firer, i.e. with Case C of To Hit Table C3] - Z
The defender could intervene with DFF at points X and Y, because of A8.1 and A8.11. The defender cannot intervene with DFF at point Z first but has to allow the Bounding First Fire shot before the Defender has the possibility to shoot back with DFF.
A. You are wrong. Bounding First Fire cannot be declared simultaneously with a MP expenditure, so the DEFENDER will always be able to declare Defensive First Fire between an MP expenditure and the declaration of Bounding First Fire. {1}
A. Yes to both. [Letter77]
[[Editor's Note: This Q&A is superceded by newer Q&A in Footnote 1]]
1) before that AFV expends a new MP? A. Yes, since no new MP expended, this shot would be based on prior MP and vs. CE.
2) before that AFV makes a B1F shot?
A. The moving player could announce that he is taking a B1F shot while going CE which would prevent D1F until after B1F.
[Letter97]
A. Yes.
[Gen24.1]
A. No; ASL is not a race to see how fast one can roll the dice.
{1}
Excellent solution, even if I do not dislike the sequence: expend MP, be subject to DFF, go CE and declare BFF, be again be subject to DFF based on the previous MP expenditure (after resolving the BFF shot)
That is precisely what I don’t like. There should be an opportunity to resolve a D1F shot on the CE BEFORE you declare B1F. That is what part 1 one of footnote 3 says. Part two says what you are here. That makes for a race condition. Who ever blurts out first “I will fire” wins the right to shoot. That doesn’t sound like how it should be to me. YMMV.
This is pretty much how I have been doing it, without really thinking of the implications of the rules:
“When I play ASL, I will clearly state the MP expenditure and give my opponent a chance to fire. After he finishes firing I will change the status of my vehicle to CE and give him another chance to shoot. Once he finishes shooting, I will perform my action. This may be B1F, Smoke Dispenser, Vehicular Smoke Grenade, etc. I deliberately give my opponent a chance to shoot when my vehicle changes status.”
Another great article!
You’re a member of the DC Conscripts. Of course you have been taught well.
Another interesting discussion, Jim. Unfortunately, your comment:
“There is no doubt this is hard for us players to get right. The lack of specificity in the rules and the confusion in the Q&A makes understanding that more difficult. It could really use clarification keeping in mind we have somehow muddled all this way without it. After all, the game is more than 30 years old.”
could be applied to a long list of similar rule conundrums. But, oh well, ASL players have long ago made peace with that predicament.
Regarding the CE issue: IMO, there should be no “race” to declare a shot. The defender should have an opportunity to D1F as soon as the commander (or whoever) pops open the hatch and sticks his head out before that AFV can take any BFF. After all, the whole point of going CE is to drop that +1 BU DRM because it is assumed the crew/commander has now gained better visibility of the target.
IMO, this implies a sequence: First: Pop open the hatch and look around. Second: Take a shot based on the newly CE guy’s better view. I don’t see how those two things could be simultaneous actions.
Of course, the great flaw in my argument is that it attempts to bring reality into the equation. No doubt, someone will have an equally compelling reality argument supporting the contrary view. For that reason alone, my opinion should be dismissed out of hand.
Perhaps your article will inspire further discussion and encourage the greybeards at MMP to finally issue a simple (and official) clarification we can all understand.
Hi Jim, you are indeed just a guy with a blog, but it’s a blog that collates and analyses some very detailed (and in this case contradictory) rules and Q&As. Having previously taken the other approach, I think my ‘default position’ will now be the step by step process you describe.
You refer to Albany having a tournament rule specific to this. I’ve looked online and can’t find this particular rule; are you able to guide me please?
From memory, you must declare CE before you can declare B1F and you must allow your opponent an opportunity to fire on the CE. This ruling comes from a game I played Gary Trezza (RIP) where I made the point of showing him the race condition in the Q&A. As only Gary could, Gary said “F*(& that Bishop! The s$#@ won’t play at Albany.”
Thanks for the kind words.
I personally think you are giving your opponent an extra shot with your method. D1F is based on the expenditure of MP/MF. You give them a chance to fire at you after any expenditure of MP. Ergo, if going CE does not expend MPs then they cannot shoot at you. You move into a hex, you spend MP, you attempt to fire smoke, you expend MP. Each of these allow D1F. Then you want to go CE. Unless there is a rule stating D1F can be used specifically for a change to CE, then I don’t think they get it. In my head because you specifically give them a chance after you move or do whatever. It’s like changing your mind on something you declared after the game has moved on. “Sorry. You already said ‘no’”
I refer you to the Q&A cited in this article, specifically footnote 3. It clearly states that a player can say no shot and then change his position and elect to shoot when a vehicle changes to CE status.
Hi Jim,
I agree with Boyce. Rules override any Q&A.
The rule specifically states D1F is contingent upon your opponent expending a MP/MF. If a defender declines to D1F after a vehicle expends a MP they cannot go back and change their mind because the vehicle went CE. Since, going CE uses no MP the defender cannot use D1F until another MP is expended.
If an AFV does not move in the movement phase but does go CE in that movement phase can the defender D1F on that AFV? The answer is no. The defender will need to wait until the defensive fire phase to fire on that AFV because it has not expended a MP.
The rule states going CE “does not constitute movement for purposes of moving target/firer penalties.”
I think if the rule creator wanted to allow D1F after an AFV went CE but before expending another MP it would have been written in the rules.
Joe
Of course, you’re free to play it as you wish. But I have traveled far and wide and played a lot of ASL all over the world. I cannot think of a single person who would not abide by the Q&A.
> If an AFV does not move in the movement phase but does go CE in that movement phase can the defender D1F on that AFV? The answer is no.
— IMO, this is false. D5.33 … Such placement/removal of a vehicle CE counter cannot occur in a MPh following Prep or Bounding First Fire by that vehicle/its PRC, nor between the time it is named as a target and the time all fire against it allowed by its last MP expenditure is resolved, and does not constitute movement for purposes of moving target/firer penalties. … Note the fact that you cannot go CE until AFTER all fire against your AFV is resolved based on your last MP. As such, you are in effect spending 1 MP in delay and then going CE. If you spend one, you spend every MP you have in delay and can be fired on as many times.
> I think if the rule creator wanted to allow D1F after an AFV went CE but before expending another MP it would have been written in the rules.
And I think the rules are riddled with mistakes and errors, some of which are known and some of which are not. No one is infallible. What’s more, even if it had been the intent of the original framers, the current steward of the rules has given us his expectations in his Perry Sez.
Have a great weekend. — jim